Can the Bible be for real?
Whew! You guys are wearing me out with these questions... just kidding! I'm having fun sitting here writing answers, but I am in a sort of writing-daze at this point. When I look away from the computer, everything else looks sort of hazy.
Nancy wrote:
1. Your answer makes a lot of sense to me, because of The Bible verses. (Since I haven't read the bible yet, but I just bought one, so hopefully soon my questions will be more intelligent hehe) But what if (Please don't be offended by this question, I've always always wondered this and no one seems to be able to give me a real answer, or they don't want to...) What if The Bible is a work of fiction ? What if God thinks The Bible is nonsense ? What if a group of religious people gathered one day a long long time ago and decided to write a book to make the people behave, scaring them into behaving ? I haven't read the whole Bible, but I've read parts, like Genesis. I really can't grasp how we can know for sure that the Genesis story is true. Who was there ? And also how do we know that Noah really built a gigantic ark for a gigantic flood and that he was sane ? The Bible says that Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came on earth. How do we know this ? It's probably not an easy question to answer huh ? hehe Sorry... I just have always had this question bugging me.
She actually wrote two other questions, but I'm going to tackle them one at a time, since - knowing me - I'll get really wordy with each one and overwhelm you with all kinds of thoughts.
I'm really excited that you got a Bible. Woot! Even if you don't believe in it as a religious text, I personally think it makes for some good reading - parts of it, anyway. I was wondering if you have a plan for reading it. In my opinion, starting with Genesis and going from there isn't always the best tactic; I usually burn out by the third book, Numbers, when I try it that way. Hector usually recommends that people start with the New Testament. In my daily reading, I usually read two chapters of a book of the Old Testament, a chapter or two from the New Testament, and a Psalm or two. If you're just starting out, it may not be the best idea to scatter yourself like that - you may get more by just going straight through one book. Let me know if you have any questions as you're reading; I'd love to help answer them, if I can!
Oh, and by the way, your questions are anything but unintelligent. They've been debated by scholars for as long as Christianity has been around. I'm really sorry no one has tried to answer your question, and I'm baffled sometimes why people are offended by questions like this. I mean, the Bible even says: "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander" (1 Peter 3:15-16). How can I, as a Christian, be prepared in giving an answer if I haven't thought through the question and found an answer for myself?
I have three levels of answers to this question: a biblical answer, an intellectual answer, and an intuitive/emotional answer.
I realize, first of all, that the biblical answer is, to a degree, counterintuitive, because if we are questioning the validity of the Bible as an inspired text, how can we use it to respond to that question? However, I still feel that I would be negligent in not addressing what the Bible says about itself in terms of being the Word of God.
First, in his second letter to Timothy, Paul writes: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (3:16-17). This is an interesting response to the common argument that, after all, the Bible was written by men. However, throughout the Bible, we read about the Trinity: God as Father, God as Son (Jesus), God as Holy Spirit. In every area of the Bible, the Spirit equips humans to do things that are not humanly possibly. Sounds supernatural? It is. And sometimes, because that's out of our realm of experience, we dismiss it. So even though it was men writing the Bible, I believe that the Spirit of God was leading them to write what they wrote.
The gospel of John begins somewhat mysteriously in its discussion of the Word (a.k.a. the Bible, the Scriptures): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." In other words, if God is outside of time, in His mind, the Bible has always existed. That's something of a challenging metaphysical concept, and right now, I'm starting to feel a little brain-dead to fully develop that thought. Does it make sense?
Now, I don't expect you to accept this as my only explanation, but I do feel it's important to explain my biblical basis for what I believe about the Bible, since the Bible is where I find authority.
I said that I also have intellectual reasons for believing that the Bible is a divinely inspired text. I simply cannot imagine a human author being able to craft a text as intricate as the Bible. I am fairly well-read, being an English teacher and avid reader, and I've never encountered a book nearly as well-devised as the Bible. The cross-references are almost unfathomable. My Bible is almost 1400 pages long, and on each page, there is no less than 20 cross-references to other verses, across both the Old and the New Testament. Most pages have nearly 30 or 40 references to other verses. That's a minimum of 28,000 cross-references! I think about the time it takes me to search for the few verses that I include in each blog entry, and it's unfathomable to include 20-40 a page. Completely unfathomable.
Additionally, the "plot" connections are unreal. The Old Testament has a ton of very specific prophecies (around 800) - or predictions - about Jesus as the Christ. To then create a character - a historically supported character, at that - who fulfills all of these prophecies is nothing short of amazing. Here is a basic list of some of those fulfilled prophecies, and this site is very comprehensive in explaining the concept of prophecy; I encourage you to read it, because the author(s) are certainly more scholarly and versed in this concept than I am. I think it was in Don Miller's book Searching for God Knows What that I recently read the very key point that, throughout history, we've had countless people claim to be God embodied in human form. However, we've only had one of those who was acknowledged by many people of the time to be God as a baby, before He could even talk.
I also said that I have intuitive/emotional reasons for believing in the Bible as a supernatural text. I cannot tell you the number of times in my life that I have turned to a verse that exactly supports a situation that I am going through. I'm sure that others would explain this away as being mere coincidence, but I personally don't buy it. I believe God guides me to those verses when I need them. And I'm always moved by the relevancy of the Bible - that despite the drastic changes in culture that we've seen in the 2000 years since Christ's life, that so much of the New Testament still speaks to the human heart today.
You repeatedly asked how we know that the stories in the Bible are true. There is no denying that we still lack "proof" for these stories; I personally believe that modern science and anthropology are so far behind these discoveries. Believing in the Bible absolutely requires faith, and no scholar will deny this. However, I would ask you this: if God really is all-powerful (and I cannot imagine a God that is not, because then what would separate Him from humans, really? What would be His point in existence if He had limitations?), wouldn't it be in His realm to make all of these stories happen? Wouldn't He have the ability to alter the length of a year, or to change the human life span? Couldn't He part a sea? Couldn't He flood the earth or send a plague of locusts? When we try to rationalize these stories to being mere fables or parables, we limit the power of God, and I'm not sure that's something that we should do.
Interestingly, I have had the subject of creation on my plate of things I'll be writing about really soon. I don't want to get too much into it right now because I'm seriously brain-dead from all of this writing and deep thinking, and I also want to wait until I can fully develop that post for itself. Stay tuned on that regard!
You ask: " What if a group of religious people gathered one day a long long time ago and decided to write a book to make the people behave, scaring them into behaving ?" Historical evidence would discount, first of all, the idea that they gathered "one day." The Old Testament itself was written over a thousand-year period. But I think the root of this idea is that perhaps man wrote it to "scare humans into behaving." To that I would ask: why this method? Why a text that is predominantly about love? Certainly instilling the fear of human violence would be much more effective; parents, for instance, are much more apt to threaten to spank their children to get them to behave then they are to suggest the wrath of God. It is surely easier to believe in a real, evident and present threat than it is to believe in a hypothetical one.
I really hope that I, in some way, answered your questions. I realize that you may choose to disagree with my response, but I certainly don't want to avoid offering a Christian's response to those concerns. Let me know if anything isn't clear or if you want to follow up - I'd be happy to revisit any part of this or elaborate after my brain restores itself :-)
Nancy wrote:
1. Your answer makes a lot of sense to me, because of The Bible verses. (Since I haven't read the bible yet, but I just bought one, so hopefully soon my questions will be more intelligent hehe) But what if (Please don't be offended by this question, I've always always wondered this and no one seems to be able to give me a real answer, or they don't want to...) What if The Bible is a work of fiction ? What if God thinks The Bible is nonsense ? What if a group of religious people gathered one day a long long time ago and decided to write a book to make the people behave, scaring them into behaving ? I haven't read the whole Bible, but I've read parts, like Genesis. I really can't grasp how we can know for sure that the Genesis story is true. Who was there ? And also how do we know that Noah really built a gigantic ark for a gigantic flood and that he was sane ? The Bible says that Noah was 600 years old when the floodwaters came on earth. How do we know this ? It's probably not an easy question to answer huh ? hehe Sorry... I just have always had this question bugging me.
She actually wrote two other questions, but I'm going to tackle them one at a time, since - knowing me - I'll get really wordy with each one and overwhelm you with all kinds of thoughts.
I'm really excited that you got a Bible. Woot! Even if you don't believe in it as a religious text, I personally think it makes for some good reading - parts of it, anyway. I was wondering if you have a plan for reading it. In my opinion, starting with Genesis and going from there isn't always the best tactic; I usually burn out by the third book, Numbers, when I try it that way. Hector usually recommends that people start with the New Testament. In my daily reading, I usually read two chapters of a book of the Old Testament, a chapter or two from the New Testament, and a Psalm or two. If you're just starting out, it may not be the best idea to scatter yourself like that - you may get more by just going straight through one book. Let me know if you have any questions as you're reading; I'd love to help answer them, if I can!
Oh, and by the way, your questions are anything but unintelligent. They've been debated by scholars for as long as Christianity has been around. I'm really sorry no one has tried to answer your question, and I'm baffled sometimes why people are offended by questions like this. I mean, the Bible even says: "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander" (1 Peter 3:15-16). How can I, as a Christian, be prepared in giving an answer if I haven't thought through the question and found an answer for myself?
I have three levels of answers to this question: a biblical answer, an intellectual answer, and an intuitive/emotional answer.
I realize, first of all, that the biblical answer is, to a degree, counterintuitive, because if we are questioning the validity of the Bible as an inspired text, how can we use it to respond to that question? However, I still feel that I would be negligent in not addressing what the Bible says about itself in terms of being the Word of God.
First, in his second letter to Timothy, Paul writes: "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (3:16-17). This is an interesting response to the common argument that, after all, the Bible was written by men. However, throughout the Bible, we read about the Trinity: God as Father, God as Son (Jesus), God as Holy Spirit. In every area of the Bible, the Spirit equips humans to do things that are not humanly possibly. Sounds supernatural? It is. And sometimes, because that's out of our realm of experience, we dismiss it. So even though it was men writing the Bible, I believe that the Spirit of God was leading them to write what they wrote.
The gospel of John begins somewhat mysteriously in its discussion of the Word (a.k.a. the Bible, the Scriptures): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God." In other words, if God is outside of time, in His mind, the Bible has always existed. That's something of a challenging metaphysical concept, and right now, I'm starting to feel a little brain-dead to fully develop that thought. Does it make sense?
Now, I don't expect you to accept this as my only explanation, but I do feel it's important to explain my biblical basis for what I believe about the Bible, since the Bible is where I find authority.
I said that I also have intellectual reasons for believing that the Bible is a divinely inspired text. I simply cannot imagine a human author being able to craft a text as intricate as the Bible. I am fairly well-read, being an English teacher and avid reader, and I've never encountered a book nearly as well-devised as the Bible. The cross-references are almost unfathomable. My Bible is almost 1400 pages long, and on each page, there is no less than 20 cross-references to other verses, across both the Old and the New Testament. Most pages have nearly 30 or 40 references to other verses. That's a minimum of 28,000 cross-references! I think about the time it takes me to search for the few verses that I include in each blog entry, and it's unfathomable to include 20-40 a page. Completely unfathomable.
Additionally, the "plot" connections are unreal. The Old Testament has a ton of very specific prophecies (around 800) - or predictions - about Jesus as the Christ. To then create a character - a historically supported character, at that - who fulfills all of these prophecies is nothing short of amazing. Here is a basic list of some of those fulfilled prophecies, and this site is very comprehensive in explaining the concept of prophecy; I encourage you to read it, because the author(s) are certainly more scholarly and versed in this concept than I am. I think it was in Don Miller's book Searching for God Knows What that I recently read the very key point that, throughout history, we've had countless people claim to be God embodied in human form. However, we've only had one of those who was acknowledged by many people of the time to be God as a baby, before He could even talk.
I also said that I have intuitive/emotional reasons for believing in the Bible as a supernatural text. I cannot tell you the number of times in my life that I have turned to a verse that exactly supports a situation that I am going through. I'm sure that others would explain this away as being mere coincidence, but I personally don't buy it. I believe God guides me to those verses when I need them. And I'm always moved by the relevancy of the Bible - that despite the drastic changes in culture that we've seen in the 2000 years since Christ's life, that so much of the New Testament still speaks to the human heart today.
You repeatedly asked how we know that the stories in the Bible are true. There is no denying that we still lack "proof" for these stories; I personally believe that modern science and anthropology are so far behind these discoveries. Believing in the Bible absolutely requires faith, and no scholar will deny this. However, I would ask you this: if God really is all-powerful (and I cannot imagine a God that is not, because then what would separate Him from humans, really? What would be His point in existence if He had limitations?), wouldn't it be in His realm to make all of these stories happen? Wouldn't He have the ability to alter the length of a year, or to change the human life span? Couldn't He part a sea? Couldn't He flood the earth or send a plague of locusts? When we try to rationalize these stories to being mere fables or parables, we limit the power of God, and I'm not sure that's something that we should do.
Interestingly, I have had the subject of creation on my plate of things I'll be writing about really soon. I don't want to get too much into it right now because I'm seriously brain-dead from all of this writing and deep thinking, and I also want to wait until I can fully develop that post for itself. Stay tuned on that regard!
You ask: " What if a group of religious people gathered one day a long long time ago and decided to write a book to make the people behave, scaring them into behaving ?" Historical evidence would discount, first of all, the idea that they gathered "one day." The Old Testament itself was written over a thousand-year period. But I think the root of this idea is that perhaps man wrote it to "scare humans into behaving." To that I would ask: why this method? Why a text that is predominantly about love? Certainly instilling the fear of human violence would be much more effective; parents, for instance, are much more apt to threaten to spank their children to get them to behave then they are to suggest the wrath of God. It is surely easier to believe in a real, evident and present threat than it is to believe in a hypothetical one.
I really hope that I, in some way, answered your questions. I realize that you may choose to disagree with my response, but I certainly don't want to avoid offering a Christian's response to those concerns. Let me know if anything isn't clear or if you want to follow up - I'd be happy to revisit any part of this or elaborate after my brain restores itself :-)
posted by Heather at 12:39 PM
2 Comments:
Heather, I don't even know where to begin... I feel like I have too much to say to try and type it in this small box because paragraphs get long really quick in the comment box and you know how I have long-paragraph-o-phobia LOL
I'll try to unscramble my thoughts, I hope it makes sense.
First of all, thank you SO much for answering my (our) questions with such patience and passion. It's obvious to me when reading your answers, you are truly trying to share your passion and hoping that we 'feel' God, instead of giving us someone else's answer.
I truly believe that your gift is writing. (And it must feel so great to have a career that goes so well with your gift.) I don't know if it's because I 'know' you and respect you, but every other time that I try to read some lenghty christian topic, I find myself zoning out and skipping words and whole paragraphs to get it over with faster. When I read this blog, I read most paragraphs twice to make sure that I understand what you're really saying. (Not because of your writing style, but because some christian concepts are so unimaginable for me that it takes a second reading for my brain to understand the theories hehe)
Thanks for mentioning A Case for Christ by Lee Stroebel. I'm definitely going to look for that. In fact, the list of books I ordered on amazon.ca last week was largely influenced by you hehe.
1 of: My Sister's Keeper : A Novel
1 of: jPod
1 of: Blue Like Jazz: Nonreligious Thoughts on Christian Spirituality
1 of: Utopian Reality
1 of: Searching for God Knows What
1 of: The Pact: A Love Story
1 of: The Doors of Perception and Heaven and Hell
1 of: Brave New World
1 of: Fahrenheit 451
1 of: 1984
I'm really satisfied with your answer regarding the Bible's validity. I'm not sure why, but it's the first time EVER that I hear the term "Divinely Inspired Text". Twice actually, one of your reference links also uses that term. And I really like the term. (It would be long to explain, but I grew up being told to be Catholic because every other good, sane person is, and that God wrote the bible himself, and I've always questioned it's true integrity ever since.)
My brother just called me asking a ridiculous 'emergency' favour AGAIN and I feel like I can't say not yet he's always asking ridiculous thing of me. ugh. I completely lost my train of thought, so I'll have to get back to this later :(
Thanks again!
It's freakin' 1am but I have to write this thought before I forget (it's the one I was going to write next earlier hehe) : I always thought that you were supposed to read the Bible from beginning to end, and I haven't even opened mine yet because I'm terrified of not being able to finish it... so maybe the way you're reading it would help! Thanks for the suggestion!
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